radarrider: (Default)
[personal profile] radarrider
  • 15:25 I consider this a distinct possibility. RT @RogerHedgecock: Gaza Flotilla was a set up by Iran. 877 847 6437 #
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Date: 2010-06-02 05:04 pm (UTC)

antiqueight: (Default)
From: [personal profile] antiqueight
I consider that seriously offensive - Ireland has a ship going there, has many people on that and other ships and was not set up by Iran. This is not about sides - it is about bringing supplies to a people being slowly starved.
Date: 2010-06-02 10:47 pm (UTC)

antiqueight: (Default)
From: [personal profile] antiqueight
I am aware I have the right to be offended. I am just pointing out that I am
It is part of the flotilla though it has not yet arrived. So not putting any words in your mouth
Israel doesn't send or let through nearly enough food and prevents any rebuilding materials through and is slowly starving these people. For example tea, coffee, sausages, semolina, milk products in large packages and most baking products are forbidden. So are industrial commodities for manufacturing food products, chocolate, sesame seeds and nuts, amongst other things.

The state of the supplies before arriving in Israel was very good - can't say what state it is in now.

I did not say that you considered it a certainty but even so I find the belief it could be to be - disrespectful - at the least.

And besides all that the part I find MOST offensive is the idea that any of that matters when Israeli forces attacked civilian vessels IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS.

"Anyone who tells you differently is selling something"
Date: 2010-06-03 12:34 am (UTC)

antiqueight: (Default)
From: [personal profile] antiqueight
Suggesting the flotilla was a set up by Iran suggests the ships were either the true villains or that they asked for it so they deserve everything they got. It ignores the fact that the flotilla can not plan for Israel to break international law - they can hope, they can taunt but in the end only Israel can choose to act illegally. It suggests Israel were the victims here. It suggests the humanitarian workers and people who raised the money, packed the aid and travelled on board were dupes.

Hence it is offensive and disrespectful (and I didn't get side tracked, I responded point by point.)

However let us look at the intention and motivation of those aboard the Mavi Marmara and whether they were supported by enemies of Israel.

Am I an enemy of Israel if I believe Israel is oppressing the inhabitants of Gaza? If I put together an aid shipment knowing that more than likely Israel will prevent it reaching Gaza does it change my motivation for wanting to help people I believe are being oppressed? Am I a terrorist if I want to show that the oppression of Gaza is wrong and draw the world's eye to the issue by using peaceful means to do so? Does believing the blockade is wrong, acting to defeat it and putting together ships full of aid means that the flotilla was supported by enemies of Israel?

Running a blockade is not by definition an act of war. Providing aid is not an aggressive act. Knowing the Israelis will likely over react does not change that. Taunting the Israelis to over react is not terrorism.

Yes - those who put together the flotilla knew Israel would likely not let the cargo get to its destination. Yes they may also have hoped that having important people on board might convince Israel not to over react too severely. The "weapons" available to those on board as shown by the IDF suggests they did not expect anything like the scale of the Israeli response. (http://idfspokesperson.com/2010/05/31/pictures-of-weapons-found-on-the-mavi-marmara-flotilla-ship-31-may-2010/)

It doesn't MATTER who put the flotilla together, it doesn't matter what their motivations were. It doesn't matter if they were enemies of Israel or friends of Gaza Palestinians (same people perhaps but NOT the same thing). If I tie myself to a tree to stop a developer bulldozing it, if he shoots me to get me to go away, it makes no difference whether I am a green activist or he dumped me and I wanted to make life hard. Activists frequently go into situations expecting to get hurt by the opponent but believe it needs to be done.

Israel committed acts of piracy, kidnapping and murder in response to ships filled with humanitarian supplies.
Date: 2010-06-03 09:10 am (UTC)

antiqueight: (Default)
From: [personal profile] antiqueight
I disagree that they hoped to get hurt. I disagree that they expected the level of response from Israel to be deadly force. However it looks like nothing I say will change your mind that you do believe that.

But it seems you do not disagree that Israel committed acts of piracy, kidnapping and murder in response to ships filled with humanitarian supplies.
Date: 2010-06-04 03:45 pm (UTC)

antiqueight: (Default)
From: [personal profile] antiqueight
If piracy then murder - If I attack you with a stick and you fight back and I pull out a gun and shoot you it is murder not self defence. Suggesting the Israelis did not intend to hurt anyone is BS. If you don't intend to hurt someone you don't attack them and certainly not while armed to the teeth. Your suggestion that the Israelis did not intend to hurt anyone is as meaningless as my attempting to say that the protesters did not expect violence.

Quoting another site:
Under international law it is legal for a sovereign country to enforce a blockade, even in international waters.

That's only true if the blockade was approved by the UN Security Council. This has not been. Whatever you might argue about the morality or politics of it, this was clearly an illegal action. If we consider this the Gaza Strip to be a part of Israel, then Israeli's embargo would not legally be a blockade, but rather just policing its own territory. And if the attack on the vessels had occurred in its territorial waters, it could be considered legal. However, territorial waters go to 22km offshore and a further 22km can be policed by a nation when working against smugglers, etc. This was substantially and significantly outside of that area.

Alternately, if we consider Gaza Strip to be de facto independent, then this would be a blockade, but as it has not been approved of by the UN Security Council, not a legal one.

There are a lot of things which can be argued about this, but not its legality.
Date: 2010-06-04 07:06 pm (UTC)

antiqueight: (Default)
From: [personal profile] antiqueight
Oh and self-defense?

Autopsies confirm all 9 activists who died in the raid were shot to death, one by "extremely close-range gunshot" to the head.

And The Israelis who boarded that ship did not intend to hurt anyone
A Canadian activist who survived maintains the activists were fired upon by "machine-guns on the helicopter."
Date: 2010-06-07 02:51 pm (UTC)

antiqueight: (Default)
From: [personal profile] antiqueight
Of course you are correct - it was an act of war.


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